Our church had VBS last week and when I got home Friday night, my soon to be 5 year old daughter had a big blue pool noodle (the theme was "divin in with Jesus") and my wife asked her to explain to me why she received said noodle. She stood there looking confused and said I don't remember why... my wife tried to prod her a little more before she whispered in her ear and then my daughter said "because I asked Jesus into my heart" I asked her what she thought that meant and she responded, as I expected with an shrug of her shoulders and an "I don't know."
This prompted some further thinking into the issue of salvation, particularly of children as I have been doing some reading (How to Bring Your Children to Christ ... and Keep Them There by Ray Comfort and Parents Concerns for their Unsaved Children by a Puritan author whose name escapes me at the moment) on the subject during the past couple of months and general thoughts over the past few years. I find myself having some very real questions about the "evangelizing" of children in particular the use of the term "ask Jesus into your heart" one of many terms that I refer to as "Christianese" or words/phrases that we hear thrown around a lot in Christian circles that I don't believe are biblical
First of all where do you find the phrase "ask Jesus into your heart" in the Bible, yet alone described or given as an answer for "how can I be saved or have eternal life."
Second of all, I know with all certainty that if given the opportunity and the gift to work with children that with the right words, music, dare I say 'bribes' (candy or pool noodles?) that I could get a whole roomful of 3,4,5,6,7 etc. etc. year olds to "ask Jesus into their hearts" I know this because I'm usually successful when working with groups of children this age to do what I want them to do including my own daughter. I can get her to agree to pretty much anything. Many people say, but the Bible says you have to have "faith like a child" but are children really capable of understanding and having the saving faith (along with the correct understanding of sin and the act of repentance the Bible talks about in regards to salvation) Or when the Bible says have "faith like a child" is it speaking in regards to having the unwavering trust and confidence a child places in their "father" to keep them safe from the monsters under the bed or the Tigers at the zoo. Read http://www.jonsplace.org/rel/faith.htm to learn more about this concept.
Third, I have worked with many teenagers in the "church"who clearly have no "fruit" or love or affection for things of Christ who when I express a concern to them or their parents inquiring about the condition of their soul and heart will cling to the fact that 'when they were 4, or 3 or 7' take your pick they said a prayer during VBS or Sunday School and asked Jesus into their hearts.
This question goes right to the root of how we "do church" and raise our children and I believe is serious enough to truly wrestle with. What age can a child understand the true gospel. (does the old baptist 'age of accountability' vary from child to child') The more I read and study, I truly believe that it is my role as a parent to continue to speak and model the "biblical" gospel of repentance and placing faith in Christ for salvation and not focus on getting my child to "say a sinners prayer or ask Jesus into her heart and leave the salvation up to God because after all Ephesians 2:8,9 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."
Please post thoughts/comments. I would love to discuss with others. (note, I am not in any way trying to put down or knock our church's VBS program, just merely trying to promote discussion on what I believe is a serious topic)
14 comments:
James ~ I think you are on the right track. And I agree with you about children getting saved at such a young age. I asked Jesus into my heart when I was 6 mainly because I was scared of going to hell! Not until I was about 12 did I really understand (more) of why Jesus died on the cross and I felt I should accept him as my Savior again ~ just in case. And I know I'm not the only one like this because I have heard other people say the same thing.
Also, when Grace was 4yrs old she went to vbs and a couple of weeks later we had a discussion about a cemetary and why we have them and about heaven and hell and how great grandma is in heaven now and she said she wanted to go to heaven to see her and not go to hell ~ basically I shared with her the whole plan of salvation ~ she "prayed the prayer"(and you're right it's not in Bible) and I thought she was saved. Now she just turned 7 and she knows Jesus died on the cross and she understands as much as a child can about it, but I will never tell her that she is saved and have her go around believing that she is. As of right now she doesn't remember ever praying the prayer. I know she will know in her heart when she really became a believer and we pray every night for our children's salvation.
You are doing the right thing by studying the Word because, 2 Timothy 2:15 says, "Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, right dividing the word of truth." There's a whole lot more to the "Chrisianese" than just this but I'm sure you already know that.
Hmm, I agree with the post... I hate the Christianese speak and I can't believe that some churches are giving "prizes" when the kids accept Christ!
But I'm not sure if just 'cause you've "forgotten" when and where you accepted Christ, you're not really saved. I have memories of the memories of being saved, but I still know I definitely am. Not necessarily THE day my sister and parents tell me about, but at some point or another.
Max accepted Christ less than two years ago and doesn't necessarily remember it. But it was clear as day to him what he did when he did it, and he still understands it all now. He just doesn't remember the day he did it.
So when we're talking about salvation, I remind him what happens when someone accepts, but I really don't force the whole "moment" that occured on him; I remind him that because he believes, the Holy Spirit abides in him (I also have issues with Jesus being in his heart... like you said, that's not in the Bible!) and that "fire insurance" doesn't mean he's living a godly life... that every day, we as Christians need to strive to hear the voice of the Holy Spirit more clearly; what that little inside voice is telling you, if it agrees with the Bible, is the HS. If it disagrees, it's your sin nature.
Hmm, I don't know if you actually realize all of the biblical topics you touched on. I agree that there is no "magic" prayer of salvation. I also believe some of the christanese concepts come from people mixing up the two gospels spoken of in scriptures- Galatians 2:7
Christ was here for the jews (Matt. 10:6 and 15:24) Preaching to them the Kingdom Gospel which he lays out for his disciples in Matthew 10 (along with instructions to them- which is why they stayed in Jerusalem expecting him to return- which he would have if all the jews had received Christ- which wasn't God's plan- Ok, enough rambling.
All that to say: I believe God does all the work for our salvation (2Thess.2:14 and Romans 8:30) but the prayer can indicate God has revealed himself to them and saved them. I believe my 5 year old has truly accepted Christ and understands. My 4 year old says she did, but I am not convinced.
So, I guess the thing to do is explain that if they truly have Christ (the Holy Spirit) dwelling in them they will have the fruits of the spirit. If their life does not reflect Christ they should evaluate where they are at.
I think there are many many people in churches who think because they said a prayer they are saved, and they might not be.
I agree largely with all these posts. My daughter, who was 4 at the time, accepted Jesus as her Savior last summer. I continue to engage her in spiritual conversations (as spiritual as you can get with a 5yo, but she surprises me) and I will look for fruit as she grows. I believe she is saved right now, but I would never encourage her not to worry about it just because she prayed a prayer as a child. The evidence is in the fruit, and only time will tell. As parents, we must pray, talk, and model.
Pool noodles for all who accept the free gift of salvation -- what does God think of that, I wonder. I'm not mocking the VBS program, I just think it's leading into some dangerous thinking. Would we offer adults a prize if they accepted Christ? No -- so why would we do that with children?
Thanks, James. I hope this leads to some good discussion.
(Allison Thompson)
Interesting thoughts...
what if the pool noodle served as a reminder - a memory marker for a child? Most who have commented here said they cannot recall the exact moment they began the journey with Christ? What if you had a pool noodle...no serioulsy!
I'm going to be a little more careful not to draw the box too small here to think that salvation is exclusive to the intellectually mature.
question. if God does all the work for our salvation is it possible for a person to be regenerate and not know it...or in essence end up in heaven surprised?
I love this response statement, "in essence to end up in heaven surprised"... that was a really good laugh... in fact when considering the Gospel Jesus presented there was much that individuals must do to inherit eternal life... so on the starker side there are many, dare I say millions, who will end up in hell surprised... I'm just restating what Jesus said in Matthew 6,7.
Now, on to James' post...
We have 5 children all under 10 years old and one on the way... (7 weeks left - and they are all on purpose!) We teach the Good News of the Reign of God to them everyday. Rarely do we talk about personal salvation with them if ever because we don't believe that was the point Jesus was trying to make in the Gospels - not to mention the point God has been trying to make from the beginning of creation (but I'll stop rambling). The point is every day we look for opportunities to demonstrate to our children what the Kingdom of God is like: planting a garden, mowing a lawn, digging a drain ditch, pruning a fruit tree, raising chickens, caring for newborn animals, loving their siblings, etc. (you can fill in the blank with the things your family is involved in) The kingdom of God or his reign touches everything and therefore everything in your day can speak of God's reign - if you've subjected that aspect of your world to his authority and rule.
Does a time or day really matter when considering your "salvation"? Does a token or reminder really matter? Does that give us some kind of bargaining power when standing before Christ? Should we even care about the events of yesterday as much as choosing again today - right now this very moment - to repent and live in God's kingdom?
So therefore it's important for us as parents to teach our children in all sorts of different moments in life how to repent and enter into the kingdom and reign of God that's going on around us. We teach our children about repentance of sin through our own personal short comings and also bringing Scripture to bear on their sin as well. We share God's divine trajectory for his creation and what a world completely subjected to the reign of God would look like.
So you won't ever hear the 4 spiritual laws around these parts but you will hear how God is at work and desires to be at work in the daily course of our family's activities and the desire of us as parents to be repenting people who are constantly choosing to live now in the kingdom of God.
Thanks for the chance to discuss this topic... I hope you frame your noodle and get it signed by Jesus someday as your momento! (c: That would fetch a high price on ebay if they have that in heaven... JK
good times,
JC
you mentioned that you could get kids to make certain responses through various forms of manipulation... not your words exactly but I was thinking this morning... how does that differ from what is done with adults as well?
James,
I haven't had the time to read all that has been written since VBS about salvation and children but there is one thing I need to set straight since I've seen that several people are incorrect about it. Children are never offered a 'prize' or bribe of any sort at our VBS when it comes to making decisions for Christ. We give out balloons (or this year, noodles) at the end of the week (something that none of the children know about) as a celebration of those who have indicated that they have prayed to receive Christ. I also know that our volunteers share the Gospel with the children in their classes each day and take the time to speak individually with each child who has said they prayed to receive Christ so the teacher/helper can see if they really grasped the concept or not before they share with the leadership team that the child has made that decision. I am pretty skeptical when it comes to small children making a decision for Christ but I just wanted to address the prizes/bribes issue. Hope that makes some sense.
Becky
I'll preface my comments by saying that I officially became a believer at the age of 8. I made the decision at Grace's VBS in 1986 and there was no candy required... Did I 100% comprehend the significance of my decision at age 8? Probably not. Do I 100% comprehend the significance of my decision 22 years later? Probably not. Am I glad that I was exposed to Biblical teaching at a young age and did it have an impact on the way I think, act and make decisions today? Absolutely!
Now, just a few thoughts in response to the posting:
1. My daughter, Claire, came home from the dentist today and had a cheap purple beaded purse. I asked her why she had the purse and she couldn't remember. When Abby prodded her and said she let the dentist brush her... she remembered. She got the purse because she let the dentist use the "special toothpaste" on her teeth. Does the fact that she forgot why she got the purse negate the significance of the step she just took? I don't think so. I think it just illustrates that children either forget things, are shy or don't want to tell us what they did; who knows?
2. I was not involved at VBS, so I don't know the practices of each teacher in the classroom. However, I find it hard to believe that they got all the kids huddled around in a circle, showed them a pool toy or a Snickers bar, and said "ok, if you accept Jesus into your heart, you can get this prize!"
3. The post talks about having "faith like a child." I believe that often times as adults, we overanalyze the gospel message and try to find complexities that don't necessarily exist. In my opinion, having faith that Jesus Christ is the one true path to salvation is pretty easy to comprehend. Repentance, understanding of sin and becoming a disciple of Christ are all things that go along with becoming a Christian, and knowledge and understanding of these things evolves over time. I am still today learning what it means to be a disciple of Christ; however, my decision I made at 8 years old still holds true to this day. I'm reminded of the verse in 2 Timothy 3 that that talks about always learning, but never being able to acknowledge the truth. At the end of the day, you have to have faith that Christ is the one true path, and we need to believe it as easily as a child believes it.
4. Finally (because I've already gone on way too long), what is the alternative to presenting the Bible to kids at a young age. Do nothing? Let them learn about God at school? Whether it's VBS, Sunday school, or in your own home, isn't it better to expose a child to Christ's teachings and "evangalize" them rather than throw caution to the wind and hope for the best?
Matt
Thanks to all for some great discussion and insightful comments.
In response to the last 2 posts
Matt,
Thanks for your post... a few thoughts/clarifications to my post in response to some of your things.
1) I never meant to imply that the pool noodles were used as a 'bribe' to get the kids to ask Jesus into your heart etc. As Becky stated on my blog, that was not the case and I never meant to imply that it was. I have however been around or witnessed people "evangelizing" children who have used bribing techniques and I was trying to demonstrate that it is very easy to "manipulate" children or get them to agree to things without them fully comprehending what they are doing.
2. In response to question 4, I don't believe there is an alternative to presenting the "Bible" to kids as a young age. My main point in the post is that we need to be presenting the "Bible" and all the things you mentioned in point 3 "Repentance, understanding of sin and becoming a disciple of Christ" should be presented frequently and clearly. I have a problem with saying things or "Christianese" like ask Jesus into your heart which is not in the Bible and is not the gospel is my main issue...
So by all means, teach repentance, help develop an awareness of sin in your children and the depravity of their hearts and the amazing sacrifice that Jesus made on the cross on their behalf.
Thanks for the discussion
"in fact when considering the Gospel Jesus presented there was much that individuals must do to inherit eternal life..."
Matthew 6:15 15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets. (are we under the law?)19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. (will i lose my salvation if I backslide?)10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: (Jesus commanded the disciples NOT to preach his gospel to the GENTILES)Matthew 5:23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift. (do we make sacrifices?) Matthew 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. (will I go to hell if I don't follow the law?)
Why does everyone go to Jesus gospel?
Do you really read scripture thinking that it was written for us gentiles?
Jesus said himself he was there for the Jews and not the gentiles, including calling one gentile woman a dog. It was there final chance to accept him, or he would provoke them to jealousy by including the gentiles, hence God calling Paul as the apostle to the gentiles. Sure, we can learn from all parts of scripture, but very little of it is written for us as gentiles. Don't be to prideful, we are not his chosen people, the jews are. We are just fortunate to be included because they denied him. (which of course was his plan all along)
If you read through the gospels you can find a hundred things that don't apply to the gospel of grace which Christ taught the jews.
Your response to Matt said, "I never meant to imply that the pool noodles were used as a 'bribe' to get the kids to ask Jesus into your heart."
But in your original post, you said, "I know with all certainty that if given the opportunity and the gift to work with children that with the right words, music, dare I say 'bribes' (candy or pool noodles?) that I could get a whole roomful of 3,4,5,6,7 etc. etc. year olds to "ask Jesus into their hearts.
Which one is it?
First of all, thank you for your comments and discussion. I am not sure if you are the same anonymous throughout but... it would be great if you would please identify yourself.
Specifically regarding "bribes" I have seen many instances (CEF, other speakers and presentations) where an item; candy, pool noodles etc. were clearly used as a bribe. I was not trying to suggest that this was the practice at Grace's VBS.
Post a Comment